Know your bearings!

When it comes to engines there are a couple parts you wouldn't want to even think about skimping on, such as your crank or bearings. Imagine them going.

There is a lot of crap bearings being sold via the gray market and now some reputable shops won't even carry major brands, such as SKF. And there is a lot of inconsistency of quality in the some major bearing brands. Ask your shop what their policy is on bearings.

Remember when Mongoose BMX bikes were great bikes or when Iams was one of the top three dog foods? It wasn't that long ago! Now you can find Mongoose bikes being sold at Target and Iams at Walmart. People I speak with say, Iams is great food! Until I show them the ingredients and they feel like crap for feeding it to their dog for so long. They didn't do their research -- they just went off of brand name and previous reputation.

One reputable shop told me, "The gist is that our main bearing supplier won't order SKF bearings any more, because SKF will not guarantee which country the bearings were made in. He'd order the same stuff month to month, and one month they might be from Germany, and the next from India. He has clients with much higher stress applications than us, and they need a guarantee of quality, which can't be done when the bearings come from different countries like that. So, he won't stock SKF anymore, and nor will many other proper bearing houses."

Please always ask your bearing distributer where your bearings were made (it must be stamped on the bearing) and confirm that it was made to be used in the USA.

The shop also explained to me . . .

We don't use bearings from India full stop. The quality is too up and down and there have been plenty of problems with them over the years. Some seem fine, and other have catastrophic failure.

It doesn't matter which manufacturer made the bearing. You have to know 100% where the bearing was made and which country it was intended for. Which is why we only buy bearings from the same bearing house we've been buying from for years.

NSK bearings can be made in China. It depends who you are getting them off. If there is no country of origin marked on the bearing, they are from China.

Also, if you buy a bearing that was brought in on the grey market, there is no guarantee of quality, even of it was made in Japan or Europe. Dodgy bearing dealers import cheap bearings that were made for other countries, and not intended for use in the US. They are lower quality. Look for the case "SKF USA, Inc. v. International Trade Commission, 2005". It explains it all, and even some official brand bearing dealers are doing it.

Do your research! Eating it at 60 mph on 10 inch tires isn't worth it.

I ordered most of my bearings from Kaman Industrial Technologies and two of them are stamped "Japan" and the third (6305VV.C3) is not stamped at all. I called my rep immediately and said "are they from China?" She told me according to NSK . . . "PER FACTORY ALL MADE IN JAPAN". I feel a little a nervous.

Please do comment should you know anything contrary to this.

I emailed NSK the following:

Hello NSK,

I am rebuilding a vintage Lambretta scooter that can travel upwards up 60 mph and I purchased NSK bearings (some will be exposed to gasoline/oil mixture and require the tolerance for an engine) for the engine because of the positive reputation NSK has. I purchased them through Kaman Industrial Technologies.

From doing research, I have learned that there are a lot of grey market bearings be sold in the USA, which were not intended for use in America. Some of your name-brand competitors have gone to court over this because those bearings and stamped with their name on it. Bearings that do not have the country stamped on it often come from China and may not be of USA quality.

My questions are:
1) My biggest concern is I purchased NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing and there is NO indication of what country it was made in. The bearing is not stamped on the metal. The seals are stamped "6305V NSK A29" and the other side is stamped "6305V NSK A33". The bearing does not even indicate it is a C3 tolerance bearing, only the box does. The box does not indicate what country it was made in. Are you able to tell me where this bearing was made? And can you tell me if it was intended for use in the USA?

2) I purchased two other bearings that are stamped "Japan" and on the back of both boxes it says "made in Japan." The bearings are: NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing and NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing. Can you confirm that these were made for use in USA?

My thought is it's better to ask now and get the details on the bearings. I don't want to find out in 2-3 years when I am going 65 mph on the free way for a short spurt in heavy traffic and to have a bearing fail, which has happened to other scooterists with different name brand bearings.

3) The bearings I ordered are "industrial bearings" not automotive said Kaman Industrial Technologies. Is this a problem?

Thanx in advance for your help,

Jeremy

Within four hours I received this response to my email from NSK:

"Jeremy,

Thank you for your interest in NSK. I hope the below response will help address any of your concerns.

Kaman Industrial Technologies is an Authorized NSK Distributor. It is unlikely that you would receive gray market bearings from this distributor. NSK 6305 bearings are manufactured in the US in Clarinda, IA. We do not mark our bearing that are made domestically with manufacturing location. For this particular size the C3 clearance is also not etched or stamped on
the bearing. The marking on the seals of the bearings that you have purchased include the bearing series ( 6305) and the manufacturing lot number.

NSK bearings that are marked "Japan" are manufactured in Japan and are intended for sale in the US.

You can be assured that the 6305 that you have purchased have been made in the US.

6305 bearing are used in other industries and applications other than automotive therefore the reason they were not listed as "automotive" bearings.

If you have any additional questions please feel free to contact me.

Thank you,

Heather Strack
NSK Corporation
Marketing Communications

Spare engine dilemma

So I emailed my mentors the following question:

I am seriously considering rebuilding my spare TV175 engine now as I
will be building the one to go in my bike. I figure they are both
apart. Bead blast all the cases at the same time. Clean all the
parts, etc. will be easy.

I am also thinking about selling the second engine after rebuild to
help fund my restoration (but secretively I dream about finding
another TV minus the engine and having two). Here's my dilemma the
second engine is missing:

1) Entire kick start quadrant and kick start.

2) Entire top-end and piston

3) Clutch plates, springs, and the top of that assembly.

4) Possibly a crank. I have a good spare, I believe, but the one in
my other engine is currently frozen with flywheel. I just ordered a
flywheel remover tool from Gene today.

5) Bearing, seals, grommets, various hardware, etc.

6) Rear hub

7) Plate that connects to the engine case and then the flywheel

So the question is how much would a stock rebuilt with quality TV175
S3 engine go for. I am fearful that it would cost a lot to build for
a price that isn't much more than I invested in it. My other option
is to just sell the cases and parts separately if I decide to sell.

You guys all build either sell or have sold scoots and possibly
engines too . . . so I figure you guys would be the best to ask.

I have an opportunity to buy FAG or SKF bearings (I think I prefer the
FAGs as it seems they have a slightly better reputation than SKF and
no India factory bearings) for 1/2 the price I paid for NSKs and that
made me start thinking about all of this. If I am patient and rebuild
the second engine slowly I can find good deals piece by piece and
complete the engine at a lower cost, but with high quality.

At this point I am just going to hold on to what I have and see if another TV lands in my lap.

Answers:

"Yeah that's a tough call. It's one thing to build up a motor if you have a lot of spares laying around but quite a diffrent story to have to buy all the missing parts. Also it's a TV175 which can be harder to source all the correct resto parts for (top end espically).

If you still want to build another bike it dosen't hurt to have the case just sitting there untill you find a frame and all the parts to make it a complete bike. If you are worried about cost I'd sell off what you have and find a complete bike to rebuild." - Mike

Bearings

In a previous post I research what I need to know about the individual bearings and what stresses they are under. I did this before ordering my bearings.
The above bearing came from Scooters Originali. RIV is OEM for Lambrettas and it is my understanding that it is a high quality bearing. It costs $60 and was included in my first engine parts order. I spoke with my mentor Tom G. (noted heavily in the restoration of my wife's Vespa SS180).

The following bearings I ordered from Kaman Industrial Technologies:
$50.63 - NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing (made in Japan)
$24.42 - NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing (made in USA)
$19.00 - NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing (made in Japan)


Total: $114.87 = $103.22 + $11.65 to ship to their warehouse what they did not have in stock. They shipped to my address for free, but I still needed to pay the freight cost from their sister warehouses. I dealt with Tonia Riveria at Kaman Industrial Technologies in San Leandro, Calif. and recommend her highly. She did a lot research for me regarding the bearings and was joy to work with.

I ordered my needle bearings from Jet200 along with my electronic ignition:
$12.75 - Layshaft needle bearing
$24.70 - Clutch needle bearing (qty: 2)
$12.75 - Gear cluster needle bearing

Day 1 -- Engine Disassembly

Issues:
- Some casing studs came out with the nut.

- At least one of the threaded holes in the casing are shot. Heli-coil?

- The kickstart lever was welded on.

- The crank and flywheel are frozen together. I don't have a flywheel remover tool yet. I hope it frees easily. I will post more on this issue later.

I will document the remainder of the disassembly and post a second slideshow for that.

Yes, I know there is a Vespa sign hung. My wife owns a 1967 Vespa SS180. A Lambretta sign will go up as well.

Note: I do not have a clutch basket holding tool, so I used a creative approach. I used a piece of wood to lock the basket and spider. I tapped the wood in with a hammer. My thought is the wood is softer than the metal and would not damage it. I then hit the screw with a impact wrench at the lowest setting just punching it for less than a second each time. Nothing moved so I stepped the wrench up to the second setting and repeated. Again nothing. I stepped it up to the third and final setting and hit again and it broke the nut free. I never fired for a full second in length with the impact wrench. It was fire and immediately release and repeat.

Lessons learned:
"One thing, never try to remove a clutch without a clutch holder. The centre basket (spider) is really soft, and almost impossible to re-align if you bend it. Hopefully yours will be OK. I bent a couple, before I realised it was cheaper (and easier) to use the proper tool.

Your flywheel should come off easily, but remember to put a new woodruff key in when you rebuild. They're cheap, so it's probably worth to have a spare." - Jim

Welded kick start

I am looking into how to best resolve the issue of my welded kick start lever.

Here's a second angle. Note that the lever is not on straight, it's actually at an angle.
Using a Dremel, hack saw, screw driver, and copper head hammer I was able to free the kick start lever. The weld was cracked and the kick start lever had some play, which was a good sign. I first hit with the Dremel with sandpaper and then Dremel with a metal grinder on it. Too slow to move much. I focused on the weak spot between the split where the screw would go in the kick start lever. I got through it and then used a large screw driver to pry it open further by tapping the screw driver with a hammer. Once it was opened more I focused on grinding the weld on the kick start quadrant / stem. I rounded the edges. I tapped at the quadrant head a bit with a copper headed hammer (softer metal on the hammer) to see if I got movement. IDIOT! I didn't remove the circlip first and therefore ruined the one I had. I couldn't see it beneath the muck, but I should have known better.

There are no teeth left on either kick shaft or lever. I have a spare kick start lever, but need a shaft.

If you watch the slideshow of Day 1 of the engine disassembly you'll see the pictures.

Bottom line is I need a new kickstart shaft aka quadrant, circlip, and possibly an additional shim. Total cost is about $50. I called Gene M. at Scooters O. about this. He told me that new quadrants are designed for GPs and are stronger than the older Li/SX/TV style ones, which are known for cracking if not constantly care for. But the GP one will not fit without removing a millimeter of the chain case with a special tool Gene would loan me.

Here's the advice I received on working through this problem:

"I would hacksaw that shit off and then replace the cam inside the case. Someone welded that on there because the cam was stripped or they had the wrong kickstart. Either way they buggered it up and you get to pay for it.

It's one of the last parts you put togehter when building the motor so you can order the part and keep on building." - Dano

"Hah, when you said welded, you really meant welded! Dang, I thought you meant that the just were really stuck together... Yeah, Dano's right, there isn't much you can do other than cut it off." - P

"Wow...

Anyway, you can grind at the weld, which means you will also grind into the kick start shaft and kick starter. By the time you grind off enough material to pull the kick starter, you'll have eaten into the shaft too. Then when you go to put a new kick starter on, the shaft will be that much shorter, but will probably still work.

But, like others have said, just hack it off and get a new kick start shaft and kick start lever." - Mike C.

"One more thing to note: When you either cut off the kick start or grind off the weld, make sure you take a file or grinder to the cut edge of the shaft and bevel the end. That way it won’t catch on the bushing/bearing and score it when you remove the shaft." - Derek G.

Engine Parts Order #2

I received the second parts order needed to rebuild my engine. I ordered these parts from Jet200.

Quantity / Description / Price

1 x Flywheel nut & washer - Li/SX/TV $3.99
1 x Flywheel dust cover circlip $1.50
1 x Flywheel dust cover $2.99
1 x Li electronic flywheel $90.00
1 x Electronic Wiring Loom - 12v (black) $44.99
1 x Electronic CDI & 12v Rectifier Mounting Kit $39.00
1 x Ducati CDI/Ignition coil $40.00
1 x Ducati 12v/20a AC regulator $45.00
1 x Layshaft needle bearing $12.75
1 x Complete 12v bulb kit $8.50
1 x Gear cluster needle bearing $12.75
2 x Clutch needle bearing $24.70
1 x BGM 120w electronic stator plate $95.99
1 x NGK Resistor cover (spark plug cap) $4.20
1 x HT lead / CDI rubber connector $2.00

Total: $423.36

One more package to arrive with my bearings in it and then I will have everything to rebuild the engine. Hurray!

Parts Ordered #1 for engine rebuild

Below is my first parts order for my engine, which I ordered from Scooters Originali.  I did not include the quantities below.

Spacer, Seal Retainer - Mag

Screw, DriveSide Oil Seal Plate

Oil Throw Washer A16

Deep Nut - 8mm

Kickstart Rubber Bumpstop

Cone Engine Bolt - Li Special/TV/SX/GP

Washer-Engine Bumpstop Rubber

Engine Rubber Bumpstop

RIV Bearing- Rear Hub Bearing RIV

Kickstart Pad - Ser 3 - Black

Spacer, Bearing Spacer - Mag

Washer, Split Lock - 7mm

Flange - Rear Hub Seal Holding Plate

Distance Nut Spacing Cylinder Cover - 8mm x 30

Nut - 7mm Jam

Seal Set - 5 Engines Seal ROLF

Main Jet - SH / Pilot PH - 106: SH1/20

Engine Mount (Silent Block) - Large
Ser 3 Special/TV/SX/GP - TUTTO (Sold in
Pairs Only)

Grand total: $188.12

Note: I spoke with Gene M. Tutto used a "blue" mark for TV and "yellow" for GP on engine mounts. Tutto says they used different hardnesses for the rubber in these two mounts, but Gene questioned if Innocenti really went through this hoop on the stock mounts. He and other reputable shops have used the GP mounts on Li/SX/TV and had great results.