Emailed my mentor Mike A.
Mike,
I am working on the fly wheel bearing. Heat gun got it piping hot. I tapped the housing on a wooden surface and bearing moved a little. Reheated and tapped against wood again. No movement. Stuck in place. Used a 24mm (my largest) socket to tap it out. It went to the end is just sitting there. Won't move further. Of course the socket bent up
the metal plate behind the bearing. Crap! I will need to replace that. I will try to reheat yet again and repeat the process.
Jeremy
Mike's response:
"yep you stuck the bearing. I said I use a propane torch for a reason, the heat gun just won't get things hot enough to work right. Actually I've had good luck using MAPP gass which burns even hotter than propane but requires a little more skill to not ruin anything.
Here is how you fix it.
Use a propane torch. Cheap to buy from Home Depot or Lowes (any hardware store really)
Heat up the mag flange. Move the torch around the flange to keep the heat even.
After about 5-7 min it should be ready to go.
Now carefully tap the bearing back home, you need to free up the jam. BE VERY CAREFUL HERE, the outer part of the flange around the bearing is very thin and can easilly snap off making your mag flange in to a paperweight. Sometimes the bearing will drop back in to place but not usually.
Turn the mag over so the bearing will want to drop out, over a coffee can works well, make sure the bearing/flange is level!!!. I use my big vice to support the mag while I heat it up.
Keep heating the flange up. After about 5 min if the bearing hasen't droped out on its own then try to tap it out. You want to use a socket thats just smaller than the outer hole on the mag so the seal can EVENLY push the bearing out. If I remember right a 27mm works well (and is the same for the rear hub nut).
Things are going to smoke (a lot) and be really really hot so don't touch things with out gloves or pliers. Once I get the bearing out I like to set the mag flange (or case) aside on the garage floor out of the way to allow it to cool down. Once it's cool clean/degrease it.
Getting things back together are harder and take a bit of patience to do right and not melt the seal. You might want to have some one with some more expierence put the bearings in for you to stay on the safe side. I can do it but it might be a pain to get the parts here, it would be easier to call Barry at SF scooter center.
If you want to send the parts to me I have time to do the job. Next day turn around." - Mike
Next step: I requested and received a free propane torch from Freecycle.org and now need to get a 27mm deep socket.
Follow-up email to Mike:
The damn propane torch kept blowing out. Used the heat gun again. The hole mag flange was hot even through my gloves. I had to tap it back in a little. I borrowed a 27mm socket (a 28mm or 29mm would have worked a little better) from a neighbor. I had to tap it moderately hard to get it free and to pop out. Of course I destroyed the track on the bearing, but since I am replacing all bearings this isn't an issue. Come to think of it everyone I speak to says to always replace the bearings when restoring. Silly not to. Again, I did destroy the metal plate behind the bearing, but I suspect I can buy one of those for a few bucks. I used the coffee can idea and it worked. The bearing was really stuck in there. I wiped it out and the inside of the mag flange looks to be in good shape. The bearing I took out was engraved by hand with ZS something and a C3 after it. Is that factory stock?
By the way, FreeCycle is where I got my propane torch. Not bad.
Two more bearings to go and not much more is left.
Showing posts with label bearings. Show all posts
Showing posts with label bearings. Show all posts
Wednesday, July 8, 2009
Another purchase
I received my most recent order from Danell at SPD. They had some bearings on clearance and I bought them for the 2nd engine I plan to build. I also bought a brass throttle, which I will need.
My package included:
$20 - CasaLambretta rear hub bearing (Made in Italy in Mecur packaging)
$8 - FAG 6004 bearing (made in Portugal)
$8 - SKF 6305/C3 (made in India, but I may toss this one)
$20 - Li/GP Brass throttle pulley, sm
$0 - Makino clutch plates Lambretta Li (gift from Danell. They were free included in the package).
(plus a $34 Vespa part I needed was included in the total below)
Grand total with shipping $90.77
I bought these bearings to rebuild the spare engine. I also needed those clutch plates for the spare engine so that is good. The brass pulley will be used in the restoration of my TV as it is missing.
Thx Danell for the clutch plate gift!
Wednesday, July 1, 2009
Know your bearings!
When it comes to engines there are a couple parts you wouldn't want to even think about skimping on, such as your crank or bearings. Imagine them going.
There is a lot of crap bearings being sold via the gray market and now some reputable shops won't even carry major brands, such as SKF. And there is a lot of inconsistency of quality in the some major bearing brands. Ask your shop what their policy is on bearings.
Remember when Mongoose BMX bikes were great bikes or when Iams was one of the top three dog foods? It wasn't that long ago! Now you can find Mongoose bikes being sold at Target and Iams at Walmart. People I speak with say, Iams is great food! Until I show them the ingredients and they feel like crap for feeding it to their dog for so long. They didn't do their research -- they just went off of brand name and previous reputation.
One reputable shop told me, "The gist is that our main bearing supplier won't order SKF bearings any more, because SKF will not guarantee which country the bearings were made in. He'd order the same stuff month to month, and one month they might be from Germany, and the next from India. He has clients with much higher stress applications than us, and they need a guarantee of quality, which can't be done when the bearings come from different countries like that. So, he won't stock SKF anymore, and nor will many other proper bearing houses."
Please always ask your bearing distributer where your bearings were made (it must be stamped on the bearing) and confirm that it was made to be used in the USA.
The shop also explained to me . . .
We don't use bearings from India full stop. The quality is too up and down and there have been plenty of problems with them over the years. Some seem fine, and other have catastrophic failure.
It doesn't matter which manufacturer made the bearing. You have to know 100% where the bearing was made and which country it was intended for. Which is why we only buy bearings from the same bearing house we've been buying from for years.
NSK bearings can be made in China. It depends who you are getting them off. If there is no country of origin marked on the bearing, they are from China.
Also, if you buy a bearing that was brought in on the grey market, there is no guarantee of quality, even of it was made in Japan or Europe. Dodgy bearing dealers import cheap bearings that were made for other countries, and not intended for use in the US. They are lower quality. Look for the case "SKF USA, Inc. v. International Trade Commission, 2005". It explains it all, and even some official brand bearing dealers are doing it.
Do your research! Eating it at 60 mph on 10 inch tires isn't worth it.
I ordered most of my bearings from Kaman Industrial Technologies and two of them are stamped "Japan" and the third (6305VV.C3) is not stamped at all. I called my rep immediately and said "are they from China?" She told me according to NSK . . . "PER FACTORY ALL MADE IN JAPAN". I feel a little a nervous.
Please do comment should you know anything contrary to this.
I emailed NSK the following:
Hello NSK,
I am rebuilding a vintage Lambretta scooter that can travel upwards up 60 mph and I purchased NSK bearings (some will be exposed to gasoline/oil mixture and require the tolerance for an engine) for the engine because of the positive reputation NSK has. I purchased them through Kaman Industrial Technologies.
From doing research, I have learned that there are a lot of grey market bearings be sold in the USA, which were not intended for use in America. Some of your name-brand competitors have gone to court over this because those bearings and stamped with their name on it. Bearings that do not have the country stamped on it often come from China and may not be of USA quality.
My questions are:
1) My biggest concern is I purchased NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing and there is NO indication of what country it was made in. The bearing is not stamped on the metal. The seals are stamped "6305V NSK A29" and the other side is stamped "6305V NSK A33". The bearing does not even indicate it is a C3 tolerance bearing, only the box does. The box does not indicate what country it was made in. Are you able to tell me where this bearing was made? And can you tell me if it was intended for use in the USA?
2) I purchased two other bearings that are stamped "Japan" and on the back of both boxes it says "made in Japan." The bearings are: NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing and NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing. Can you confirm that these were made for use in USA?
My thought is it's better to ask now and get the details on the bearings. I don't want to find out in 2-3 years when I am going 65 mph on the free way for a short spurt in heavy traffic and to have a bearing fail, which has happened to other scooterists with different name brand bearings.
3) The bearings I ordered are "industrial bearings" not automotive said Kaman Industrial Technologies. Is this a problem?
Thanx in advance for your help,
Jeremy
Within four hours I received this response to my email from NSK:
"Jeremy,
Thank you for your interest in NSK. I hope the below response will help address any of your concerns.
Kaman Industrial Technologies is an Authorized NSK Distributor. It is unlikely that you would receive gray market bearings from this distributor. NSK 6305 bearings are manufactured in the US in Clarinda, IA. We do not mark our bearing that are made domestically with manufacturing location. For this particular size the C3 clearance is also not etched or stamped on
the bearing. The marking on the seals of the bearings that you have purchased include the bearing series ( 6305) and the manufacturing lot number.
NSK bearings that are marked "Japan" are manufactured in Japan and are intended for sale in the US.
You can be assured that the 6305 that you have purchased have been made in the US.
6305 bearing are used in other industries and applications other than automotive therefore the reason they were not listed as "automotive" bearings.
If you have any additional questions please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Heather Strack
NSK Corporation
Marketing Communications
There is a lot of crap bearings being sold via the gray market and now some reputable shops won't even carry major brands, such as SKF. And there is a lot of inconsistency of quality in the some major bearing brands. Ask your shop what their policy is on bearings.
Remember when Mongoose BMX bikes were great bikes or when Iams was one of the top three dog foods? It wasn't that long ago! Now you can find Mongoose bikes being sold at Target and Iams at Walmart. People I speak with say, Iams is great food! Until I show them the ingredients and they feel like crap for feeding it to their dog for so long. They didn't do their research -- they just went off of brand name and previous reputation.
One reputable shop told me, "The gist is that our main bearing supplier won't order SKF bearings any more, because SKF will not guarantee which country the bearings were made in. He'd order the same stuff month to month, and one month they might be from Germany, and the next from India. He has clients with much higher stress applications than us, and they need a guarantee of quality, which can't be done when the bearings come from different countries like that. So, he won't stock SKF anymore, and nor will many other proper bearing houses."
Please always ask your bearing distributer where your bearings were made (it must be stamped on the bearing) and confirm that it was made to be used in the USA.
The shop also explained to me . . .
We don't use bearings from India full stop. The quality is too up and down and there have been plenty of problems with them over the years. Some seem fine, and other have catastrophic failure.
It doesn't matter which manufacturer made the bearing. You have to know 100% where the bearing was made and which country it was intended for. Which is why we only buy bearings from the same bearing house we've been buying from for years.
NSK bearings can be made in China. It depends who you are getting them off. If there is no country of origin marked on the bearing, they are from China.
Also, if you buy a bearing that was brought in on the grey market, there is no guarantee of quality, even of it was made in Japan or Europe. Dodgy bearing dealers import cheap bearings that were made for other countries, and not intended for use in the US. They are lower quality. Look for the case "SKF USA, Inc. v. International Trade Commission, 2005". It explains it all, and even some official brand bearing dealers are doing it.
Do your research! Eating it at 60 mph on 10 inch tires isn't worth it.
I ordered most of my bearings from Kaman Industrial Technologies and two of them are stamped "Japan" and the third (6305VV.C3) is not stamped at all. I called my rep immediately and said "are they from China?" She told me according to NSK . . . "PER FACTORY ALL MADE IN JAPAN". I feel a little a nervous.
Please do comment should you know anything contrary to this.
I emailed NSK the following:
Hello NSK,
I am rebuilding a vintage Lambretta scooter that can travel upwards up 60 mph and I purchased NSK bearings (some will be exposed to gasoline/oil mixture and require the tolerance for an engine) for the engine because of the positive reputation NSK has. I purchased them through Kaman Industrial Technologies.
From doing research, I have learned that there are a lot of grey market bearings be sold in the USA, which were not intended for use in America. Some of your name-brand competitors have gone to court over this because those bearings and stamped with their name on it. Bearings that do not have the country stamped on it often come from China and may not be of USA quality.
My questions are:
1) My biggest concern is I purchased NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing and there is NO indication of what country it was made in. The bearing is not stamped on the metal. The seals are stamped "6305V NSK A29" and the other side is stamped "6305V NSK A33". The bearing does not even indicate it is a C3 tolerance bearing, only the box does. The box does not indicate what country it was made in. Are you able to tell me where this bearing was made? And can you tell me if it was intended for use in the USA?
2) I purchased two other bearings that are stamped "Japan" and on the back of both boxes it says "made in Japan." The bearings are: NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing and NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing. Can you confirm that these were made for use in USA?
My thought is it's better to ask now and get the details on the bearings. I don't want to find out in 2-3 years when I am going 65 mph on the free way for a short spurt in heavy traffic and to have a bearing fail, which has happened to other scooterists with different name brand bearings.
3) The bearings I ordered are "industrial bearings" not automotive said Kaman Industrial Technologies. Is this a problem?
Thanx in advance for your help,
Jeremy
Within four hours I received this response to my email from NSK:
"Jeremy,
Thank you for your interest in NSK. I hope the below response will help address any of your concerns.
Kaman Industrial Technologies is an Authorized NSK Distributor. It is unlikely that you would receive gray market bearings from this distributor. NSK 6305 bearings are manufactured in the US in Clarinda, IA. We do not mark our bearing that are made domestically with manufacturing location. For this particular size the C3 clearance is also not etched or stamped on
the bearing. The marking on the seals of the bearings that you have purchased include the bearing series ( 6305) and the manufacturing lot number.
NSK bearings that are marked "Japan" are manufactured in Japan and are intended for sale in the US.
You can be assured that the 6305 that you have purchased have been made in the US.
6305 bearing are used in other industries and applications other than automotive therefore the reason they were not listed as "automotive" bearings.
If you have any additional questions please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Heather Strack
NSK Corporation
Marketing Communications
Friday, June 26, 2009
Bearings
In a previous post I research what I need to know about the individual bearings and what stresses they are under. I did this before ordering my bearings.
The above bearing came from Scooters Originali. RIV is OEM for Lambrettas and it is my understanding that it is a high quality bearing. It costs $60 and was included in my first engine parts order. I spoke with my mentor Tom G. (noted heavily in the restoration of my wife's Vespa SS180).
The following bearings I ordered from Kaman Industrial Technologies:
$50.63 - NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing (made in Japan)
$24.42 - NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing (made in USA)
$19.00 - NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing (made in Japan)
Total: $114.87 = $103.22 + $11.65 to ship to their warehouse what they did not have in stock. They shipped to my address for free, but I still needed to pay the freight cost from their sister warehouses. I dealt with Tonia Riveria at Kaman Industrial Technologies in San Leandro, Calif. and recommend her highly. She did a lot research for me regarding the bearings and was joy to work with.
I ordered my needle bearings from Jet200 along with my electronic ignition:
$12.75 - Layshaft needle bearing
$24.70 - Clutch needle bearing (qty: 2)
$12.75 - Gear cluster needle bearing
The above bearing came from Scooters Originali. RIV is OEM for Lambrettas and it is my understanding that it is a high quality bearing. It costs $60 and was included in my first engine parts order. I spoke with my mentor Tom G. (noted heavily in the restoration of my wife's Vespa SS180).
The following bearings I ordered from Kaman Industrial Technologies:
$50.63 - NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing (made in Japan)
$24.42 - NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing (made in USA)
$19.00 - NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing (made in Japan)
Total: $114.87 = $103.22 + $11.65 to ship to their warehouse what they did not have in stock. They shipped to my address for free, but I still needed to pay the freight cost from their sister warehouses. I dealt with Tonia Riveria at Kaman Industrial Technologies in San Leandro, Calif. and recommend her highly. She did a lot research for me regarding the bearings and was joy to work with.
I ordered my needle bearings from Jet200 along with my electronic ignition:
$12.75 - Layshaft needle bearing
$24.70 - Clutch needle bearing (qty: 2)
$12.75 - Gear cluster needle bearing
Saturday, April 18, 2009
Bearing choices
I have been doing a lot of research on bearing choices and trying to make sure that I get great quality bearings. I spoke with both a scoot shop and two bearing distributors. SKF and FAG brand bearings are the most expensive bearings I looked at, but it looks like I will be using NSK. The bearing distributor has not been able to find the three needle rolling bearings based off of the numbers provided in Marti Sticky's book. Here's what I have so far:
- $27.35 for drive side main bearing "6305 VVC3 NSK (has rubber seal per Sticky's recommendation)"
- $50.63 for flywheel side main bearing "NU205M NSK (has bronze metal cages)"
* Alternative is $141 for FAG NU205E.M1
- $19.00 for endplate gear cluster bearing "6004 NSK"
- $11.12 for front hub sealed bearing "6201VV NSK"
- $60.00 for a RIV branded rear hub bearing
I will confirm that these are the best choices to go with.
Note: I do not need to order the front hub bearings as my front disc brake came with two brand new FAGs with metal seals still in unopened boxes.
- $27.35 for drive side main bearing "6305 VVC3 NSK (has rubber seal per Sticky's recommendation)"
- $50.63 for flywheel side main bearing "NU205M NSK (has bronze metal cages)"
* Alternative is $141 for FAG NU205E.M1
- $19.00 for endplate gear cluster bearing "6004 NSK"
- $11.12 for front hub sealed bearing "6201VV NSK"
- $60.00 for a RIV branded rear hub bearing
I will confirm that these are the best choices to go with.
Note: I do not need to order the front hub bearings as my front disc brake came with two brand new FAGs with metal seals still in unopened boxes.
Saturday, April 11, 2009
It's all about engine bearings
Background reference: great information on bearing choices can be found here.
When restoring my wife's 1967 Vespa VSC. I quickly took to two mentors, because I am a total newbie. Those guys are Christopher Markley and Tom Giordano. They are referenced a ton on the blog restore of the Vespa. For this Lambretta I have added to mentors to my list, Stuart Werner and Mike Analt. So now I have four teachers. I am in the process of learning everything I can about the bearings that go inside a Lambretta engine. I don't like to just do things. I get obsessive and want to know about each piece before installing it and without a doubt bearings are parts that play an integral role in the performance and safety of your scooter.
First, I spoke with Gene Meredith and learned he sells URB bearings, but of course he explained
we can get any bearing you want. we normally use URB, which is a good high quality bearing, but if you insist on SKF I can get it, although it will be more $ and also NO guarantee what country the bearing was made in (SKF supply whatever is sent to them from whatever country is making x bearing at that time - which is why we prefer URB which is a good European bearing - used around here by most motorcycle shops and we use and have had no problem with them. they are EC which is extra capacity rating.
Secondly, I spoke with my mentors and got a greatly detailed answer that taught me exactly what I needed to know.
For the crank, you want to use an ECP (extra capacity) bearing. If you can get that from SKF, great. If not, go with the best quality bearing you can find. But then again, SKF has plants all over the world, and I'm not thrilled with their Indian production. Some of the Vespa Crankshaft bearings you get these days are SKF Indian, and I have seen several cage failures (and NEVER saw a cage failure on anything BUT these indian SKFs).
I've had good experiences with ZKL bearings.
But remember, the magneto side bearing is a two-part roller bearing. N204 or NU204 (I can't recall right now which). The rollers are held in place by a cage. Most N or NU 204 bearings made these days are made with plastic cages. But if you hunt, you can still find ones with bronze or steel cages. You want to use a bronze or steel cage bearing.
For a few years, (a reputable very shop) was selling plastic caged bearings. I had spoken with the Technical Service people at SKF, who said that the plastic cages were not meant to be used in constant contact with fuel. I raised this issue with (the very reputable shop owner), who spoke with (very reputable Italian distributor and Lammy Lover) about it. (The Italian Distributor) said he had been using them for years with no ill effects, and continued supplying plastic cage bearings. I decided to only use metal cage for my rebuilds. I think -- but am not sure -- that (the very reputable shop) has changed their policy and that their magneto bearings now only come with metal cages. I have not bought one lately, so I don't know.
You will not have an option to use metal cages with some of the needle rollers in the Lammy transmission. Some only come in plastic cage these days, but it does not matter. The transmission does not see gas -- only oil. So plastic is not a problem here.
Tom
When I lived in Harrisburg, PA I purchased my bearings from an industrial company, but I can't recall the name off the top of my head.
I have also been told that Power Transmission Services in Baltimore at 410-354-0010 is good and sells ZKL as well.
When restoring my wife's 1967 Vespa VSC. I quickly took to two mentors, because I am a total newbie. Those guys are Christopher Markley and Tom Giordano. They are referenced a ton on the blog restore of the Vespa. For this Lambretta I have added to mentors to my list, Stuart Werner and Mike Analt. So now I have four teachers. I am in the process of learning everything I can about the bearings that go inside a Lambretta engine. I don't like to just do things. I get obsessive and want to know about each piece before installing it and without a doubt bearings are parts that play an integral role in the performance and safety of your scooter.
First, I spoke with Gene Meredith and learned he sells URB bearings, but of course he explained
we can get any bearing you want. we normally use URB, which is a good high quality bearing, but if you insist on SKF I can get it, although it will be more $ and also NO guarantee what country the bearing was made in (SKF supply whatever is sent to them from whatever country is making x bearing at that time - which is why we prefer URB which is a good European bearing - used around here by most motorcycle shops and we use and have had no problem with them. they are EC which is extra capacity rating.
Secondly, I spoke with my mentors and got a greatly detailed answer that taught me exactly what I needed to know.
For the crank, you want to use an ECP (extra capacity) bearing. If you can get that from SKF, great. If not, go with the best quality bearing you can find. But then again, SKF has plants all over the world, and I'm not thrilled with their Indian production. Some of the Vespa Crankshaft bearings you get these days are SKF Indian, and I have seen several cage failures (and NEVER saw a cage failure on anything BUT these indian SKFs).
I've had good experiences with ZKL bearings.
But remember, the magneto side bearing is a two-part roller bearing. N204 or NU204 (I can't recall right now which). The rollers are held in place by a cage. Most N or NU 204 bearings made these days are made with plastic cages. But if you hunt, you can still find ones with bronze or steel cages. You want to use a bronze or steel cage bearing.
For a few years, (a reputable very shop) was selling plastic caged bearings. I had spoken with the Technical Service people at SKF, who said that the plastic cages were not meant to be used in constant contact with fuel. I raised this issue with (the very reputable shop owner), who spoke with (very reputable Italian distributor and Lammy Lover) about it. (The Italian Distributor) said he had been using them for years with no ill effects, and continued supplying plastic cage bearings. I decided to only use metal cage for my rebuilds. I think -- but am not sure -- that (the very reputable shop) has changed their policy and that their magneto bearings now only come with metal cages. I have not bought one lately, so I don't know.
You will not have an option to use metal cages with some of the needle rollers in the Lammy transmission. Some only come in plastic cage these days, but it does not matter. The transmission does not see gas -- only oil. So plastic is not a problem here.
Tom
When I lived in Harrisburg, PA I purchased my bearings from an industrial company, but I can't recall the name off the top of my head.
I have also been told that Power Transmission Services in Baltimore at 410-354-0010 is good and sells ZKL as well.
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